# genlinmixed problems and questions

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## genlinmixed problems and questions

I’m fitting a growth curve to some data (three waves). In mixed I say

mixed ngrants with wave/fixed wave/print solution/

random intercept wave | subject(rid) covtype(un).

But the data are really counts so better to use a poisson or negbinomial. So:

genlinmixed /fields target=ngrants/

random use_intercept=true effects=wave subjects=rid

covariance_type=diagonal.

I get a NPD message on the final Hessian but I also get this:

Random Effect Covariances

 Random Effect Block 1 Random Effect Block Intercept wave=0 wave=9 wave=15 Intercept .226 .000 .000 .000 wave=0 .000 .014 .000 .000 wave=9 .000 .000 .000 .000 wave=15 .000 .000 .000 .142 Covariance Structure: Diagonal Subject Specification: rid

What don’t I understand?

Thanks, Gene Maguin

===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD
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## Re: genlinmixed problems and questions

Gene:

I’d suggest you start by excluding the random wave effect. You would still be accounting for covariance within subjects (“rid)  across waves via the random intercept term.

If you are going to incorporate a random wave effect, consider changing the covariance type to unstructured. This would allow the intercept and slope terms to covary, which is fairly common observed in longitudinal data.

Ryan

On Dec 30, 2019, at 4:54 PM, Maguin, Eugene <[hidden email]> wrote:

﻿

I’m fitting a growth curve to some data (three waves). In mixed I say

mixed ngrants with wave/fixed wave/print solution/

random intercept wave | subject(rid) covtype(un).

But the data are really counts so better to use a poisson or negbinomial. So:

genlinmixed /fields target=ngrants/

random use_intercept=true effects=wave subjects=rid

covariance_type=diagonal.

I get a NPD message on the final Hessian but I also get this:

Random Effect Covariances

 Random Effect Block 1 Random Effect Block Intercept wave=0 wave=9 wave=15 Intercept .226 .000 .000 .000 wave=0 .000 .014 .000 .000 wave=9 .000 .000 .000 .000 wave=15 .000 .000 .000 .142 Covariance Structure: Diagonal Subject Specification: rid

What don’t I understand?

Thanks, Gene Maguin

===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD
===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD
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## Re: genlinmixed problems and questions

From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ryan Black
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 6:31 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: genlinmixed problems and questions

Gene:

I’d suggest you start by excluding the random wave effect. You would still be accounting for covariance within subjects (“rid)  across waves via the random intercept term.

If you are going to incorporate a random wave effect, consider changing the covariance type to unstructured. This would allow the intercept and slope terms to covary, which is fairly common observed in longitudinal data.

Ryan

On Dec 30, 2019, at 4:54 PM, Maguin, Eugene <[hidden email]> wrote:

﻿

I’m fitting a growth curve to some data (three waves). In mixed I say

mixed ngrants with wave/fixed wave/print solution/

random intercept wave | subject(rid) covtype(un).

But the data are really counts so better to use a poisson or negbinomial. So:

genlinmixed /fields target=ngrants/

random use_intercept=true effects=wave subjects=rid

covariance_type=diagonal.

I get a NPD message on the final Hessian but I also get this:

Random Effect Covariances

 Random Effect Block 1 Random Effect Block Intercept wave=0 wave=9 wave=15 Intercept .226 .000 .000 .000 wave=0 .000 .014 .000 .000 wave=9 .000 .000 .000 .000 wave=15 .000 .000 .000 .142 Covariance Structure: Diagonal Subject Specification: rid

What don’t I understand?

Thanks, Gene Maguin

===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD

===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD

===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD
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## Re: genlinmixed problems and questions

In reply to this post by Ryan Black

I’ve done that. My initial model included only a random intercept and it estimated. What I described only occurred when I added the wave term. I experimented some more this morning and found the problem. The problem was that wave was “nominal”. When I changed it, variable level, aka “measure” in variable view data window tab, to scale I get what I expected. The only discussion of this “problem” is on page 783 in an oblique, veiled statement. The controlling effect of variable level should be explicitly stated in, at least, the fixed and random subcommands.

Gene Maguin

From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ryan Black
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 6:31 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: genlinmixed problems and questions

Gene:

I’d suggest you start by excluding the random wave effect. You would still be accounting for covariance within subjects (“rid)  across waves via the random intercept term.

If you are going to incorporate a random wave effect, consider changing the covariance type to unstructured. This would allow the intercept and slope terms to covary, which is fairly common observed in longitudinal data.

Ryan

On Dec 30, 2019, at 4:54 PM, Maguin, Eugene <[hidden email]> wrote:

﻿

I’m fitting a growth curve to some data (three waves). In mixed I say

mixed ngrants with wave/fixed wave/print solution/

random intercept wave | subject(rid) covtype(un).

But the data are really counts so better to use a poisson or negbinomial. So:

genlinmixed /fields target=ngrants/

random use_intercept=true effects=wave subjects=rid

covariance_type=diagonal.

I get a NPD message on the final Hessian but I also get this:

Random Effect Covariances

 Random Effect Block 1 Random Effect Block Intercept wave=0 wave=9 wave=15 Intercept .226 .000 .000 .000 wave=0 .000 .014 .000 .000 wave=9 .000 .000 .000 .000 wave=15 .000 .000 .000 .142 Covariance Structure: Diagonal Subject Specification: rid

What don’t I understand?

Thanks, Gene Maguin

===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD

===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD

===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD
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## Re: genlinmixed problems and questions

In reply to this post by Maguin, Eugene
﻿Hi Gene,

Thanks for sharing with us how you resolved the issue. There would be redundancy if wave were treated as nominal. If you wanted to treat wave as a nominal variable, I would just remove the intercept term. Clearly you don’t so all is well.

Anyway I’m glad you were able to resolve it.

Happy NYE!

Ryan

On Dec 31, 2019, at 8:59 AM, Maguin, Eugene <[hidden email]> wrote:

﻿

I’ve done that. My initial model included only a random intercept and it estimated. What I described only occurred when I added the wave term. I experimented some more this morning and found the problem. The problem was that wave was “nominal”. When I changed it, variable level, aka “measure” in variable view data window tab, to scale I get what I expected. The only discussion of this “problem” is on page 783 in an oblique, veiled statement. The controlling effect of variable level should be explicitly stated in, at least, the fixed and random subcommands.

Gene Maguin

From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ryan Black
Sent: Monday, December 30, 2019 6:31 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: genlinmixed problems and questions

Gene:

I’d suggest you start by excluding the random wave effect. You would still be accounting for covariance within subjects (“rid)  across waves via the random intercept term.

If you are going to incorporate a random wave effect, consider changing the covariance type to unstructured. This would allow the intercept and slope terms to covary, which is fairly common observed in longitudinal data.

Ryan

On Dec 30, 2019, at 4:54 PM, Maguin, Eugene <[hidden email]> wrote:

﻿

I’m fitting a growth curve to some data (three waves). In mixed I say

mixed ngrants with wave/fixed wave/print solution/

random intercept wave | subject(rid) covtype(un).

But the data are really counts so better to use a poisson or negbinomial. So:

genlinmixed /fields target=ngrants/

random use_intercept=true effects=wave subjects=rid

covariance_type=diagonal.

I get a NPD message on the final Hessian but I also get this:

Random Effect Covariances

 Random Effect Block 1 Random Effect Block Intercept wave=0 wave=9 wave=15 Intercept .226 .000 .000 .000 wave=0 .000 .014 .000 .000 wave=9 .000 .000 .000 .000 wave=15 .000 .000 .000 .142 Covariance Structure: Diagonal Subject Specification: rid

What don’t I understand?

Thanks, Gene Maguin

===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD

===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD

===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD
===================== To manage your subscription to SPSSX-L, send a message to [hidden email] (not to SPSSX-L), with no body text except the command. To leave the list, send the command SIGNOFF SPSSX-L For a list of commands to manage subscriptions, send the command INFO REFCARD