# McNemar test

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## McNemar test

 Dear all, Could someone please advise on the best way to report the results of a McNemar test.  If I state beforehand that I am using McNemar, do I simply label the test statistic as being 'chi-square'? For example, I have compared the proportions 82.59% and 76.62%.  This gives a value of the McNemar statistic of 172.567 with p < 0.001 and N = 7920.  I have calculated a 95% confidence interval for the difference of (5.09%, 6.85%). I would like to report this (and similar) information in the most accurate and way possible.  Suggestions please? Many thanks, Lou
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## Re: McNemar test

 Lou: The McNemar test does not test the difference between the two proportions in a 2 X 2 chi-square. It is used to assess change across time (or some other within-subjects variable): does the change from 0 to 1 differ significantly from the change from 1 to 0, for example (it ignores the frequencies of subjects who go from 0 to 0 and from 1 to 1). Hence, it is like a "paired t-test" for dichotomous data. See Siegel, S. (1956). Non parametric statistics for the behavioral sciences. New York: McGraw-Hill. p. 63-67. Joe Burleson -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lou Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:18 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: McNemar test Dear all, Could someone please advise on the best way to report the results of a McNemar test.  If I state beforehand that I am using McNemar, do I simply label the test statistic as being 'chi-square'? For example, I have compared the proportions 82.59% and 76.62%.  This gives a value of the McNemar statistic of 172.567 with p < 0.001 and N = 7920.  I have calculated a 95% confidence interval for the difference of (5.09%, 6.85%). I would like to report this (and similar) information in the most accurate and way possible.  Suggestions please? Many thanks, Lou
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## Re: McNemar test

 I have used the McNemar to examine case characteristics and decisions in matched pairs. For example, given children of two different races who are matched on gender, county, reason for report to agency and age; are there other significant differences between the members of the pair, for example, biological father in the household? After determining the comparability of the members of each pair, I used the McNemar again to look at whether there was a difference between the case disposition (accepted or not accepted for service) for the white child of the pair v. the African American child of the pair. For reporting it out, I do one table to illustrate how it works and then use summaries to report ensuing McNemar analyses. I report it as a McNemar chi square for paired samples. Susan On Apr 2 2007, Burleson,Joseph A. wrote: >Lou: > >The McNemar test does not test the difference between the two >proportions in a 2 X 2 chi-square. It is used to assess change across >time (or some other within-subjects variable): does the change from 0 to >1 differ significantly from the change from 1 to 0, for example (it >ignores the frequencies of subjects who go from 0 to 0 and from 1 to 1). > > >Hence, it is like a "paired t-test" for dichotomous data. > >See Siegel, S. (1956). Non parametric statistics for the behavioral >sciences. New York: McGraw-Hill. p. 63-67. > >Joe Burleson >-----Original Message----- >From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of >Lou >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:18 AM >To: [hidden email] >Subject: McNemar test > >Dear all, > >Could someone please advise on the best way to report the results of a >McNemar test.  If I state beforehand that I am using McNemar, do I >simply >label the test statistic as being 'chi-square'? > >For example, I have compared the proportions 82.59% and 76.62%.  This >gives a value of the McNemar statistic of 172.567 with p < 0.001 and >N = 7920.  I have calculated a 95% confidence interval for the >difference >of (5.09%, 6.85%). > >I would like to report this (and similar) information in the most >accurate >and way possible.  Suggestions please? > >Many thanks, > >Lou >
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## Re: McNemar test

 In reply to this post by Burleson,Joseph A. I agree that McNemar's test is like a paired (or dependent samples) t test but it works on a 2 by 2 table where the table represents paired frequencies. For example, if 100 people report whether or not they agree or disagree with two political statements, then the results can be reported as a 2 by 2 table: 1st statement           2nd statement                         agree                   disagree    total agree                     30                        10  40 disagree                  20                        40  60 total                     50                        50  100 The typical chi-squared test for such a table is a measure of association between the statements Indicatig a significant relation (chi-square(df=1, n=100) = 16.67; p < .01). The McNemar test is concerned with the equality of the marginal proportions (p(1.) = P(.1). That is, is the proportion who agree with the first statement (40%) different from the proportion who agree with the second statement (50%)? This is equivalent to the test of symmetry for the table (p(12) = p(21) The large sample test statistic is chi-square(1) = (10 - 20)**2 / (10+20) = 3.33; p > .05. Paul R. Swank, Ph.D. Professor Director of Reseach Children's Learning Institute University of Texas Health Science Center-Houston -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Burleson,Joseph A. Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:27 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: McNemar test Lou: The McNemar test does not test the difference between the two proportions in a 2 X 2 chi-square. It is used to assess change across time (or some other within-subjects variable): does the change from 0 to 1 differ significantly from the change from 1 to 0, for example (it ignores the frequencies of subjects who go from 0 to 0 and from 1 to 1). Hence, it is like a "paired t-test" for dichotomous data. See Siegel, S. (1956). Non parametric statistics for the behavioral sciences. New York: McGraw-Hill. p. 63-67. Joe Burleson -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lou Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:18 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: McNemar test Dear all, Could someone please advise on the best way to report the results of a McNemar test.  If I state beforehand that I am using McNemar, do I simply label the test statistic as being 'chi-square'? For example, I have compared the proportions 82.59% and 76.62%.  This gives a value of the McNemar statistic of 172.567 with p < 0.001 and N = 7920.  I have calculated a 95% confidence interval for the difference of (5.09%, 6.85%). I would like to report this (and similar) information in the most accurate and way possible.  Suggestions please? Many thanks, Lou
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## Re: McNemar test

 In reply to this post by Charlotte-9 Paul: I think the simple question is why does SPSS not print the value of the McNemar chi-square (3.333) under the value column? Siegel (p. 64) identifies the test as a chi-square test with df = 1, and I concur with your results, with the SPSS 2-tailed McNemar value equal to .099. Joe Burleson -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Swank, Paul R Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 4:06 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: McNemar test I agree that McNemar's test is like a paired (or dependent samples) t test but it works on a 2 by 2 table where the table represents paired frequencies. For example, if 100 people report whether or not they agree or disagree with two political statements, then the results can be reported as a 2 by 2 table: 1st statement           2nd statement                         agree                   disagree    total agree                     30                        10  40 disagree                  20                        40  60 total                     50                        50  100 The typical chi-squared test for such a table is a measure of association between the statements Indicatig a significant relation (chi-square(df=1, n=100) = 16.67; p < .01). The McNemar test is concerned with the equality of the marginal proportions (p(1.) = P(.1). That is, is the proportion who agree with the first statement (40%) different from the proportion who agree with the second statement (50%)? This is equivalent to the test of symmetry for the table (p(12) = p(21) The large sample test statistic is chi-square(1) = (10 - 20)**2 / (10+20) = 3.33; p > .05. Paul R. Swank, Ph.D. Professor Director of Reseach Children's Learning Institute University of Texas Health Science Center-Houston -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Burleson,Joseph A. Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:27 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: McNemar test Lou: The McNemar test does not test the difference between the two proportions in a 2 X 2 chi-square. It is used to assess change across time (or some other within-subjects variable): does the change from 0 to 1 differ significantly from the change from 1 to 0, for example (it ignores the frequencies of subjects who go from 0 to 0 and from 1 to 1). Hence, it is like a "paired t-test" for dichotomous data. See Siegel, S. (1956). Non parametric statistics for the behavioral sciences. New York: McGraw-Hill. p. 63-67. Joe Burleson -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lou Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:18 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: McNemar test Dear all, Could someone please advise on the best way to report the results of a McNemar test.  If I state beforehand that I am using McNemar, do I simply label the test statistic as being 'chi-square'? For example, I have compared the proportions 82.59% and 76.62%.  This gives a value of the McNemar statistic of 172.567 with p < 0.001 and N = 7920.  I have calculated a 95% confidence interval for the difference of (5.09%, 6.85%). I would like to report this (and similar) information in the most accurate and way possible.  Suggestions please? Many thanks, Lou
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## Re: McNemar test

 SPSS does the exact test for McNemar which is based upon the binomial distribution. I imagine, if the sample were large enough, it might revert to the large sample approximation, ie, the chi-square. Paul R. Swank, Ph.D. Professor, Developmental Pediatrics Director of Research, University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Burleson,Joseph A. Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 3:51 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: McNemar test Paul: I think the simple question is why does SPSS not print the value of the McNemar chi-square (3.333) under the value column? Siegel (p. 64) identifies the test as a chi-square test with df = 1, and I concur with your results, with the SPSS 2-tailed McNemar value equal to .099. Joe Burleson -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Swank, Paul R Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2007 4:06 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: McNemar test I agree that McNemar's test is like a paired (or dependent samples) t test but it works on a 2 by 2 table where the table represents paired frequencies. For example, if 100 people report whether or not they agree or disagree with two political statements, then the results can be reported as a 2 by 2 table: 1st statement           2nd statement                         agree                   disagree    total agree                     30                        10  40 disagree                  20                        40  60 total                     50                        50  100 The typical chi-squared test for such a table is a measure of association between the statements Indicatig a significant relation (chi-square(df=1, n=100) = 16.67; p < .01). The McNemar test is concerned with the equality of the marginal proportions (p(1.) = P(.1). That is, is the proportion who agree with the first statement (40%) different from the proportion who agree with the second statement (50%)? This is equivalent to the test of symmetry for the table (p(12) = p(21) The large sample test statistic is chi-square(1) = (10 - 20)**2 / (10+20) = 3.33; p > .05. Paul R. Swank, Ph.D. Professor Director of Reseach Children's Learning Institute University of Texas Health Science Center-Houston -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Burleson,Joseph A. Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:27 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: McNemar test Lou: The McNemar test does not test the difference between the two proportions in a 2 X 2 chi-square. It is used to assess change across time (or some other within-subjects variable): does the change from 0 to 1 differ significantly from the change from 1 to 0, for example (it ignores the frequencies of subjects who go from 0 to 0 and from 1 to 1). Hence, it is like a "paired t-test" for dichotomous data. See Siegel, S. (1956). Non parametric statistics for the behavioral sciences. New York: McGraw-Hill. p. 63-67. Joe Burleson -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lou Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:18 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: McNemar test Dear all, Could someone please advise on the best way to report the results of a McNemar test.  If I state beforehand that I am using McNemar, do I simply label the test statistic as being 'chi-square'? For example, I have compared the proportions 82.59% and 76.62%.  This gives a value of the McNemar statistic of 172.567 with p < 0.001 and N = 7920.  I have calculated a 95% confidence interval for the difference of (5.09%, 6.85%). I would like to report this (and similar) information in the most accurate and way possible.  Suggestions please? Many thanks, Lou
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## Re: McNemar test

 In reply to this post by Swank, Paul R Dear Paul   Thank you for your lucid description of what is achieved by the McNemar test. I have been watching this discussion with interest, as I have been developing increasing scepticism about the usefulness of this test as a paired test. In particular, it surely cannot be viewed as a good test of difference in individual views over two statements, say, if we wish in particular to see if the individual feels differently according as to whether you present him or her with statement 1 or 2.   Consider the following example:   1st statement           2nd statement                               agree                   disagree    total agree                       10                        40           50 disagree                   40                        10           50 total                         50                        50          100   If we wished to test the null hypothesis that an individual's view does not change according to the statement they are presented with, we wouldn't have a rather strange result with the McNemar test - a chi-square value of 0, presumably, and a p-value (according to SPSS) of 1, and yet, common sense tells us from this table that concordance is rather poor to say the least.   Although I do not have the data to hand, I have witnessed similarly conflicting results occurring in practice where somebody wishes to test for a difference in diagnosis for a particular condition using two tests. Despite the lack of concordance for the results of these tests, the McNemar test provided no evidence to support what was obvious from the corresponding frequency tables (and thus again p greater than 0.05 in each case). I think that there is some confusion about what this test sets out to achieve.   Please feel free to come back to me on this. For example, I would be interested to receive evidence of where the McNemar test can be truly said to work usefully as a paired test.   Yours gratefully   Best wishes   Margaret "Swank, Paul R" <[hidden email]> wrote:   I agree that McNemar's test is like a paired (or dependent samples) t test but it works on a 2 by 2 table where the table represents paired frequencies. For example, if 100 people report whether or not they agree or disagree with two political statements, then the results can be reported as a 2 by 2 table: 1st statement 2nd statement agree disagree total agree 30 10 40 disagree 20 40 60 total 50 50 100 The typical chi-squared test for such a table is a measure of association between the statements Indicatig a significant relation (chi-square(df=1, n=100) = 16.67; p < .01). The McNemar test is concerned with the equality of the marginal proportions (p(1.) = P(.1). That is, is the proportion who agree with the first statement (40%) different from the proportion who agree with the second statement (50%)? This is equivalent to the test of symmetry for the table (p(12) = p(21) The large sample test statistic is chi-square(1) = (10 - 20)**2 / (10+20) = 3.33; p > .05. Paul R. Swank, Ph.D. Professor Director of Reseach Children's Learning Institute University of Texas Health Science Center-Houston -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Burleson,Joseph A. Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:27 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: McNemar test Lou: The McNemar test does not test the difference between the two proportions in a 2 X 2 chi-square. It is used to assess change across time (or some other within-subjects variable): does the change from 0 to 1 differ significantly from the change from 1 to 0, for example (it ignores the frequencies of subjects who go from 0 to 0 and from 1 to 1). Hence, it is like a "paired t-test" for dichotomous data. See Siegel, S. (1956). Non parametric statistics for the behavioral sciences. New York: McGraw-Hill. p. 63-67. Joe Burleson -----Original Message----- From: SPSSX(r) Discussion [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Lou Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 11:18 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: McNemar test Dear all, Could someone please advise on the best way to report the results of a McNemar test. If I state beforehand that I am using McNemar, do I simply label the test statistic as being 'chi-square'? For example, I have compared the proportions 82.59% and 76.62%. This gives a value of the McNemar statistic of 172.567 with p < 0.001 and N = 7920. I have calculated a 95% confidence interval for the difference of (5.09%, 6.85%). I would like to report this (and similar) information in the most accurate and way possible. Suggestions please? Many thanks, Lou ---------------------------------  Copy addresses and emails from any email account to Yahoo! Mail - quick, easy and free. Do it now...